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Soldier

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So seriously everybody. If an outbreak does happen why would it ever get as bad as dawn of the dead got? I mean come on guys let's say that the zombies are all newly deceased people a la night of the living dead. So every hospital/morgue/coroner's office etc. has about 30 or 40 dead bodies. And you have a couple of these in your county. Providing for disbelief and people getting caught off guard let's say that each of these 80 zombies kill 2 people, that's 160 zombies in your county. Even if it's quadruple that number in each county i'm sorry to be a disbeliever but local police forces and armed citizens could take care of that before supper, lol. So, how could it ever get so bad as to end the world? I am speaking for the South of course since basically everyone owns a gun, the police are equipped and in Georgia, there are at least 20 military bases.
I mean shit guys, sorry to ruin your boners but if an outbreak did happen you probably wouldn't even get a shot off before it was over.
Even if other countries failed and were overrun, let's say Mexico because Canada would be alright I think, even then our infected would be killed so then you just reroute forces to the border. I seriously don't see an outbreak getting to the point of social collapse.


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Reply with quote  #2 

I think the panic caused by the over hyping (and you know that every news agency would be reporting on it like crazy if they could) of the outbreak would cause more deaths (maybe as much as 10x or more) than the actual zombies would.  And that might lead to, atleast temporary, anarchy.


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Reply with quote  #3 

I think in an actual zombie outbreak, the zombies initially wouldnt be the biggest concern. Your fellow citizens would help the collapse come alot faster. Take away a persons normal life, and their own personal world comes crashing down. It makes people desperate and unpredictable.


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Soldier

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I just don't see where you're getting these opinions from honestly. This isn't a power outage or a damn flood. There is a huge difference in how you react to a power outage as opposed to an attack. 9/11 is a prime example, not one event of any kind of mass panic not even in New York. The same would hold true of an outbreak I believe. Looting on the scale of Katrina would only occur AFTER the fall of order, not the fall of order because of the event. Come on guys. Things just don't happen as they are portrayed in the movies. People don't just descend into chaos if there is still a symbol of authority. Police, EMS, Nat'l Guard, etc. And at the numbers I specified these authority figures would be in force.


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Reply with quote  #5 

And to take away a person's "normal" life there has to be a loss of normality in the first place. Such as basic utilities and access to medical facilities and food and water all of which would still be readily available to people in the event I have specified and the numbers I specified. Also physical security and psychological security are the biggest part of descending into chaos. That goes back to the authority figures, people with guns who wear uniforms would be all over. I just think you guys have seen too many movies and don't have enough real-world examples.


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Reply with quote  #6 

Back when zombies weren't mainstream, I thought an outbreak and eventual breakdown was a sure thing.  Now, I think it may happen.


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Where am I getting my opinions from?

  Well, I base my opinion on what I learned while earning my degree in Emergency Management, and my other degree in Homeland Security.

  Professionally, I've completed courses through FEMA relating specifically to national pandemic response and federal response to other large scale multijurisdictional events. I've also attended many lectures, and completed coursework relating SPECIFICALLY to how the general population would be expected to behave during pandemic situations and other large scale, national disasters.

  I've worked in emergency services for the past 5 years, my degrees are specific to local and federal government response, and I have other course certificates from federal courses that pretty much have all taught me that the average citizen is the worst part of every disaster. They have the tendency to make it worse based on their collective ignorance and panic.

  So no, I don't watch too much tv or movies. I base my opinions on my education and government training.


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Soldier

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well I responded to Katrina within 20 hours and I can tell you that real world experience told me that people didn't start freaking out until they lost power and stopped seeing uniforms and other authority figures. People don't just immediately lose their minds as soon as news release that something happened
I respect your education but I know in your experience in emergency services must have shown you that what a text book and statistics say are seldom what happens in real life. And education and government training aren't things I would put money on above field experience personally and I definitely wouldn't bet my life on it in any situation.
PS-FEMA isn't something to bring up as a pro to any argument after all the ball-dropping they have done in every possible situation. So go in peace with that education and government training.

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier
And to take away a person's "normal" life there has to be a loss of normality in the first place. 
 

 -The dead rising from the dead and eating people. There's your loss of normality.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier
Such as basic utilities and access to medical facilities and food and water all of which would still be readily available to people in the event I have specified and the numbers I specified.


  -Access to medical facilities? The recently deceased are coming back from the dead. The hospital is going to be opened and functioning properly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier
Also physical security and psychological security are the biggest part of descending into chaos. That goes back to the authority figures, people with guns who wear uniforms would be all over.


  -That goes against your first point. People with guns everywhere would most certainly be a break from normality. The military deploying to your local streets would only add to the image that everything is NOT ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier
 People don't just descend into chaos if there is still a symbol of authority. Police, EMS, Nat'l Guard, etc


 -Thats if the police, EMS, Nat'l Guard are able to show up. 
    -Police -Most small town police depts. can't handle more than one incident at once without calling outaside assistance. Manpower/resource issues. Where would the extra help come from if the neighboring districts are having the same problems? Also, the normal everyday crime would still be happening, plus possible looting, and other event related crime. AND local police would have to deal with the undead. Also, thats assuming all the police show up to work, and dont choose to call out. Sounds doable?
     -EMS -People everywhere don't realize how overstrained the EMS system already is. Also, over half of the EMS service in the U.S. is volunteer, The other half is a commercial service. How many EMS workers do you expect to respond to life and death incidents when the dead wake up and kill people? You can expect many EMS calls to go unanswered due to high absenteeism.  Also, in any disaster the amount of calls requiring EMS increase. And where would the ambulances bring people? To already closed/overrun hospitals?
      -Nat'l Guard-
  I think they will fare better than the police, but they will have to contend with law enforcement, disaster response, and dealing with the undead. This is an event that would get exponentially worse as each day passes. It would be in every town, in every state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier
I just think you guys have seen too many movies and don't have enough real-world examples.

 -I think you have too much faith in your fellow man.

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Soldier

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Reply with quote  #10 
The last part is true because I fail to remind myself before I type my ideas down and post them that not everyone has had the training in survival and combat that I have and not everyone has had the experience that I have had. Also me seeing people in uniform with guns would make me more at ease with the situation whereas those without my history probably would become hysterical. So I get that.
And I was a combat medic so I know where you're coming from with the EMS guys.
I just know in my situation, I know how to remain calm and keep those around me calm so I just attributed it to the rest of mankind.
But yeah you're right on most counts. Very good points all around.
But also take into account the number of combat veterans out in our society today. An entire generation of combat veterans are now out of the armed forces and going back to every facet of the community at large with the same experiences as me. These people would definitely help rather than hurt the pandemic situation.


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Reply with quote  #11 
I respect you for your history, and thank you for your service. I just disagree on your outlook on our society being able to hold itself together. America is strong, but far too many of our people are weak and ignorant.

 And in the end, how can either one of us really argue about realism when talking about zombies?

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Soldier

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Reply with quote  #12 

I couldn't agree more. Americans today are weak and unable to cope without everything being handed to them. Selfish children all of them.


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Soldier

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Reply with quote  #13 

And lol. It is a little weird to argue over what would happen if a zombie outbreak occured.


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alex51

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Reply with quote  #14 
Good discussion guys some well made points on both sides. This is the place for zombie "what if's" and the theorizing about an outbreak is the glue that holds this place together. I don't have the experiance that you guys have but I would imagine the out come would largely depend on the communities that you live in. 
Not only rural vs dense urban. Some communities will pull together and some will riot for any stupid reason. Even in a large city like Chicago there are neighborhoods that are worlds apart from each other in attitude, ethics and self reliance. I guess all I am saying is we will know for sure when something big happens. Still it is fun to speculate. 

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Reply with quote  #15 

The scenario that scares me the most is what RCS would do if they canceled Glee. That is what we really need to plan for.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier
I just think you guys have seen too many movies and don't have enough real-world examples.

If we're using real-world examples, I don't quite think we'd have an outbreak of  "newly deceased people a la night of the living dead." Not trying to revive the dead horse here, but I just don't think there's a lot of sense in the literal 'dead walking.'  I think, almost factually, that if there is going to be some kind of outbreak that has potential to annihilate society, it's going to be bacterial or viral. And that is ALWAYS enough to cause panic, like Creep said. People are idiots. 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creeper

The scenario that scares me the most is what RCS would do if they canceled Glee. That is what we really need to plan for.

What was that?  I'm so used to understanding you with a dick in your mouth that I can hardly understand you sans penis.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon_City_Survivor
What was that?  I'm so used to understanding you with a dick in your mouth that I can hardly understand you sans penis.


Shit, I'm sorry RCS.  8===D
 
"Gurgsgkugsdlg glig fdosivyug gyu"

That better?


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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #19 
Ohhhh, I hate that show!!!



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier
So seriously everybody. If an outbreak does happen why would it ever get as bad as dawn of the dead got? I mean come on guys let's say that the zombies are all newly deceased people a la night of the living dead. So every hospital/morgue/coroner's office etc. has about 30 or 40 dead bodies. And you have a couple of these in your county. Providing for disbelief and people getting caught off guard let's say that each of these 80 zombies kill 2 people, that's 160 zombies in your county. Even if it's quadruple that number in each county i'm sorry to be a disbeliever but local police forces and armed citizens could take care of that before supper, lol. So, how could it ever get so bad as to end the world? I am speaking for the South of course since basically everyone owns a gun, the police are equipped and in Georgia, there are at least 20 military bases.
I mean shit guys, sorry to ruin your boners but if an outbreak did happen you probably wouldn't even get a shot off before it was over.
Even if other countries failed and were overrun, let's say Mexico because Canada would be alright I think, even then our infected would be killed so then you just reroute forces to the border. I seriously don't see an outbreak getting to the point of social collapse.


Your scenario makes me wonder.  So we are talking about a zombie breakout akin to Night of the Living Dead or Dawn of the Dead?  There is a difference.

I think the biggest predictor to what will happen is the incubation period for the virus (bacteria, space rays....whatever).  I will use my neighborhood as an example.  I live in a metro area that has houses crammed in on every street 8-10 feet away from the house next door for miles and miles in every direction.  My wife is a nurse so let us say for this example that something went down and my wife got infected and was sent home because some crazy fucker bit her on the arm.  She bites my ass and now we are both zombies.  Assuming I was outside (running away from her crazy ass) I start walking around looking for something to eat.  Ahhhhh theres my neighbor on his porch smoking a cigarette like he always is.  He notices me walking around all funny and finally sees my bite mark...oops too late I take a piece of his ass (of course it would be the ass you guys know me) and now he starts walking around fucking with people.  Now the majority of the street is NOT going to just start stumbling outside to see what is going on with all the neighbors eating each other, BUT there is plenty of foot traffic and car traffic in my area.  Now we know zombies are not afraid of ANYTHING so cars driving down the street are not even on the zombies radar so all of a sudden you have maybe 5-6 people infected (me, my wife, the neighbor and a couple other random people that wer eout taking a walk at the wrong time) roaming the streets literally IN THE STREETS walking around.  So a couple cars veer off the road to prevent an accident and maybe get out to scream at the dude walking in the street (or maybe not either way it works) so by now you have the police called from a neighbor who may be seeing what is going on or the couple cars that have run into trees called.  The EMS immediately try to help the 'victims' (zombies) because they are trained to do that.  They may think raibies or some other shit and they get infected.  Now you have maybe 10 or so zombies that cannot be killed unless you put a bullet in their brain wondering around.

A couple other random cars come through the area and maybe they are dumb and maybe they are not, but non the less you end up with a couple more zombies outta the deal.

Now they start spreading to busier streets (in my example I live 2 blocks from a pretty busy main street so it would not take much to wonder over) We head out into traffic again because lets be honest thats what zombies do.  A couple more car crashes a couple more people get out to yell at the dumbasses in the road.  BAM there is at least 20 more zombies (it is a VERY busy road) so now there are 30 all running around causing havoc.  Of course by now you may have some more police arrive to try and assist in the situation.  They start yelling at the 'infected' to 'stop or I will shoot'. Well we know zombies do not give a fuck about guns so they keep on going after the police.  The police stand there ground and finally ONE of the cops tries to shoot ONE of the zombies coming at them and of course nothing happens and they keep coming.  Now a couple other cops start firing into the crown coming at them, but of course non of them go down (well MAYBE one of the cops gets a head shot, but they are not going to be thinking head shot so it will most likely be an accident) Now we have a couple cops to add to the mix of zombies. 

The still living cops call in for back up and we can assume at this point with 30 or so zombies running around that the cars in the area have all tried to get the fuck outta dodge.  Well that present another problem because now you have a little bit of choas to add to the mix and more than a fair share of accidents.  So people get out of their car to run away from the unfolding choas in front of them.  BAM there are another 10 or so to add to the mix.

So 40 or so now running around trying to find a meal.  So that starts spilling into the neighboring streets that have no idea what is going on.  So of course you have a couple good hearted people trying to help the 'victims' (zombies) and they get bit  etc etc etc.  It finally spills off into a MAJOR road artery and within maybe 30 minutes you have 80-100 zombies running around (this assumes an incubation period that is almost instant like in 28 weeks later)

NOWAY will you EVER get national guard or any othe rmain force in there fast enough to quelch this so hours after hours of this same thing repeating itself in my area as well as in other areas.  You can see how it would not take long for panic to rule the day and the zombies multiplying at a manic rate to over take entire cities.

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"Something my granddad used to tell us. You know Macumba? Voodoo. My granddad was a priest in Trinidad. He used to tell us, "When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth."
nierahzee

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Reply with quote  #21 
It also helps that most people only use their brains to keep the top of their heads from caving in.

Very nice scenario JBK.


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Reply with quote  #22 

I'm with JBK on this one.


Also, lets not forget the looters and assosiated crazys. Look at the mayhem after a B-ball game.......and the "cops" couldn't handle them, let alone dead bodys chomping on people.

If EVERYONE stayed calm I can see the police,NG,Army quickly sweeping thru and knockem all dead. But I don't think everyone would stay calm, so now we have looters, highways clogged, fires and general chaos to contend with as well.

Hell look at how badly things went during a "simple" hurricane and that was just one city and they had plenty of warning to leave well in advance.

 If it were the "28 days" type we could all be in deep shit ultra quick. Lets all hope for slow dopy z's, lol.


*** A state of Shock from impact/injury would resemble "zombie" activity. *** EMS would key in on it and move to help. Write it on a rock.

Oh I almost forgot, guys with guns- then the NG tries to take a bitten family member away - OK corral time kids.


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Reply with quote  #23 
my original reaosoning was similar to jbk's, i was thinking roads. 1 zombie wandering into rush hour traffic causes pile up, 3 or 4 people die, if all dead rise they are zombies, depending on rez time the reanimate in cars, or in back of ambulance and attack emt's, who probably crash and cause more traffic jams.

this is from one actual zombie who never actually bit anyone yet.
so of course washington mobilizes, umm no they dont this is just a crappy day on the freeway. they wouldnt even notice.
now once the injured dying and dead pour into the hospitals, thats where the fun begins. a lot depends on how long til they come back, time of year( summer heat wave or freezing cold increase deaths of elderly, and homeless) 
so overnight all those dead folk at hospital start gettin up, morgue is pretty full so ya have a couple guys workin to get things in order. eek they get attacked, 1 is surprised and bit, 2nd freaks and runs screamin into hospital. they call cops, say theres crazies( no sane person woud use the Z word yet)
cops respond. meanwhile zombies have followed out of morgue, cause screamy guy made no attempt to barricade them. cops spot some of em and shoot in head...oh wait no, no cop will shoot an unarmed civilian in head as first option. they do the sir, please step away from door, sir stop shuffling toward me, sir stop or i will use my taser--cop tazes zombie bites.
point is, it has to get bad before most people are gonna be ok with shoot as first reaction, and then more delay til they figure out shoot in head

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Reply with quote  #24 
I think three factors would determine how screwed we'd be in a zombie outbreak:

1.  Time it takes to turn.  If people turn quick it makes outbreak easier to contain (less chance of bitten person escaping a quarantine). On the flip side, if they're runners and they turn quick, they might establish a lot of momentum at the start which could be tough to overcome.

2.  Fast vs. Slow.  Odds that an outbreak of slow zombies would get crazy out-of-control are much lower than if we get a bunch of runners.

3.  Prevailing public reaction.  If people are able to sack up and shoot their friends and loved ones in the face, then we're probably gonna make it.  Otherwise, might wanna charter a trip to a deserted island.

Honestly, looking at how poorly the government responds to true emergencies (Katrina or 9/11 anyone?), I think the military / law enforcement response matters a lot less than the determinants listed above.

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Reply with quote  #25 

And keep in mind that its the recently deceased EVERYWHERE rising up. Not just one city.


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