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olaf_yahoo

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There has been a lot of talk about how to fight zombies, how to kill them, how to elude them and how to protect against them. I thought it would be prudent to point out a few things that seem to have been overlooked or that could do to be refreshed.



Gear-



1. When battling anything in close proximity especially when it involves sharp things/things that go bang SHIT WILL GET ON YOU! Because of this I feel it should be essential gear to have full face coverings. Something to fully protect the eyes, nose and mouth. Think about it (hypothetically as they don't exist) if they bite you you get infected, if you get blood on you you get infected. This tells us that all body fluids are infected and any contact with any body opening, orifice, injury or absorption will infect you. This includes even fine droplets not just buckets o' blood entering through (but not limited to) your eyes, your nose, your mouth, your ears, under your fingernails/toenails, your entire genital area, any injury from simple scrapes to compound fractures and open wounds. So in a simple sentence, first essential item is a fully encompassing face shield of some sort.

2. On the same topic I think gloves, even thin form fitting ones are a necessity.

3. Even though it may not be totally feasible or possible for everyone I feel that light armor on extremeties is required. Simple as a covering for the outside of the upper arms, forearms and lower legs. If broken down to what I personally think would be needed I would say forearms and lower legs. Why you ask? Because in combat when close with someone/thing the parts (for a zombie as they have human form) most easily reached aside from your face are your hands/forearms and your lower legs for a crawling/prostrate zombie. If you are grappling with a zombie then it is your hands and forearms most at risk. Anyway armor of some sort is recommended. Idealy it would be something light but strong and puncture resistant. I would suggest form fitted (not totally arm or leg encompassing) 1/8" titanium plates. They are very light but extremely strong and can withstand forces far greater than anything a humans jaw muscles can exert.

4. If you have a non firearm based close combat weapon I recommend something that can be treated. By this I mean something that can easily be sterilized after a survived contact. I recommend nothing with wooden handles (even the finest hard woods with super tight grain structures aren't good enough) or metals with very low melting points. Titanium and any grade of steel would be excellent choices. They can be treated with alcohol and then fire to be sterilized. Thus far no virus, parasite or microbe can survive temperatures above 400 degrees. Hold the weapon in a flame (each part) for a full 30 seconds (after initial cleaning to get actual blood and particles off) and you will be set to go. Make sure all sides of the weapon are fully and totally treated.

5. Having a silenced weapon of some sort for when you need to eliminate a threat but cannot afford exposing yourself.

6. Binoculars/monocular or mounted/handheld scope for viewing things at a distance.
7. A good light source for nighttime or dark places. I would recommend one with an easily replaceable (attachable/detachable) red light lense. This will preserve night vision as well as make it hard for any enemy to spot you, human or undead

8. Carry some basic tools with you, what do I consider the bare essentials? Phillips and straight slot screwdriver of the standard size, adjustable wrench and some small prying tool. These need not be large or heavy and can be exremely useful. There are other tools of course that can be just as valueable but I would suggest having the above mentioned as they are the most commonly needed. Of course a multi tool of the traditional variety is very useful but they are not designed nor intended for "heavy" work. Also I have never seen one with any type of prying function nor with an adjustable wrench.

9. A secondary light source for the sole purpose of blinding your enemy. They are not smart enough to look away from an intensly bright light. As this is so and there are so many lights out there with extremely high light output I highly recommend acquiring such a light. It can be small and light weight and in an emergency can be used as a normal light source (as it should be intended as an indirect weapon). How would this be useful as an anti zombie tool? Well an enemy that cannot see you is far easier to eliminate or evade. Make sure to carry at least one replacement bulb and no less than one spare set of batteries.

10. Carry an emergency reserve for all firearms, things that need power and things that have attachments that might need replacing. I recommend one magazine for your primary/secondary weapon or a full load of whatever type of round you use for your shotgun. This reserve would be used for an absolute last resort and not part of your normal reloads. This reserve should be considered extremely precious and, again, the last thing you use. I am of the belief that unless you are very very heavily armed and in a supported hunting party to eliminate the undead that you consider every round, bolt and slug as the one that might save your life. Use them only when you need to, otherwise go around the enemy, avoid the enemy or rethink your entire strategy. Of course there will be times you will use your weapons, just do it with the knowledge that supply is short, don't waste shots.



Tactics - Considerations - Misconceptions


Tactics-

Hypothetically speaking it is logical that anything that would degrade fine motor skills and higher cognitive thought would also deaden senses. This means in all likelihood that undead would not only be uncoordinated but less adept at detecting and tracking the living. As this is possible, even probable, combat tactics and measures for avoidance should be addressed accordingly.

Despite the fact that they may not "die" from some wounds that would incapacitate a normal human or even kill them that does not make them invulnerable to anything less than a head shot. The human body has many weaknesses, an undead body would have many of the same. Take out their legs, destroy or sever nerve clusters, destroy or disable sensory organs. Examples, sever the head from the shoulders, cut the spinal column anywhere along the back, take out their knees. Think of how a normal person is vulnerable, now imagine a very very drunk person, how they are uncoordinated and disoriented. Now imagine how easily you could defeat them given your quicker reflexes, superior coordination and quick thinking.

A simple thing, if you have 30 seconds and a group of walking assholes on your butt (if possible) tie a line at ankle/lower shin height across a narrow path they would have to travel to get to you. This will knock them down and slow the rest behind them which would buy you time.

Distractions are not a bad idea if well thought out and carefully executed. A small, brief noise (if they use this sense to their advantage) can help you escape. A long, loud, continuous sound will only serve to attract them to your location.

If you find something that helped you defeat a zombie or a group of them it will very likely work on others. A wise man once said "The only wasted experience is one you have not learned from" there is always something to learn that can help you.


more later...


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alex51

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Reply with quote  #2 

Good ideas. Have always thought that a motocross leather outfit or some carhartt construction coveralls with a full motor cycle helmet would make for some good makeshift armor. Have to say the nasty juices of the undead and how to avoid them has crossed my mind.


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olaf_yahoo

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Reply with quote  #3 
That is not a bad idea, bear in mind however that motorcycle helmets do a LOT to kill sound. Just remember this if you choose to use one of these as cranial/facial protection.
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olaf_yahoo

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Reply with quote  #4 


Tactics continued-

Do not think that even if a zombie were harder to kill than a human that they could not be damaged, confused, disoriented or distracted. Their bodies while decomposed (possibly), damaged and oblivious to pain are still controlled by the brain. They may have limited intelligence (good for us) but the brain as an organ is still very fragile and succeptible to all sorts of attacks. Think about this- if they are able to walk/grab/bite etc then the brain is sending signals along the nevous system. This means electrical attacks will be just as effective on them as they are on humans.

A bash on the head will disorient, stun or otherwise knock off balance (even literally) a zombie just as it would a human.

Chemicals that would cause blindness in a human will also cause blindness in a zombie. If rendered into aerosol form entire crowds could be dealt with quickly and safely. As they would no longer have the ability to see you dealing with them would be that much simpler.

Something else commonly overlooked is this. For them to function there must be SOME brain activity. For them to be able to move, even if in an uncoordinated manner, be able to recognize prey (us) and work the mouth in concert with the hands the brain must be functioning. The brain MUST have oxygen to function, this means they BREATHE. If something beathes you can suffocate it, you can drown it, you can cause it to inhale all sorts of agents damaging to the body. If it breathes then the circulatory system is also still functioning. These are just facts of the human body, if a zombie existed, if it could walk/run, if it could moan, if it can move at all then all these things must be working. You can't have a body that moves (unless totally artifically as in mechanically enhanced) without brain function, nor can the brain work without oxygen. You cannot get oxygen to the brain without the circulatory system working.

All of this means that they could die of everything WE can. I'm sorry if this takes all the......fun out of it but this is how the body works.

It is my opinion that if zombies ever came about they would not actually be undead in any fashion. They would be humans who had lost most/all of their memory, coordination and problem solving skills. A side effect of this would be the cannibalistic urges. They would be alive, just not human any longer.



More later

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ZombieDiva

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Reply with quote  #5 

Quote:
Chemicals that would cause blindness in a human will also cause blindness in a zombie. If rendered into aerosol form entire crowds could be dealt with quickly and safely. As they would no longer have the ability to see you dealing with them would be that much simpler. 

 

Excellent point. You have many others, but one can not be too sure about zombie physiology as compared to the human survivor. But you definitely give some good food for thought.


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olaf_yahoo

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Reply with quote  #6 
Am I the only one who finds it very cool that a pretty lady is involved in a zombie forum and actually contributes? Damn that's sexy. Yeah so anyway, I do think the zombie body would be highly succeptible to most of the same attacks that normal humans are.
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olaf_yahoo

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Reply with quote  #7 
Considerations-

Hypothetically speaking even if a zombie was harder to kill than a human it's body would still be vulnerable. Let us look at aspects of anatomy which provide means of effectively disabling or destroying the threat from physical attacks.


Vulnerable points on the zombie body-

1. The knees and legs as a whole, if it cannot walk it is less of a threat

2. Any group of tendons which allow for movement, ie. achilles tendon, tendons in the wrist and posterior patella (rear of kneecap). Severing of these tendons will result in immediate loss of control (to a large degree) of the connecting tissue and limb.

3. Any joint of the body, the knees are an obvious and excellent target, aside from that we have the elbows, ankles and wrists.

4. The vertebra is covered by only a very thin layer of epidermis (skin) and only a little subcutaneous fat (even in larger people). The entire spinal column is extremely vulnerable to attack and when severed will result it immediate and total loss of control of the body parts below the point of damage. The neck is a high priority target for such attacks as it is the weakest point as well as the most vulnerable.

5. The head, you saw this one coming didn't you. There are so many things one can do to damage the cranium we could list them all day. Noteworthy points of vulnerability are the eye sockets, the ears and the temples. Each of these is extremely vulnerable to a number of different types of attacks as well as by different weapons. The brain contained within is suceptible to damage from impact shock, piercing trauma, blunt force trauma and a host of other technical terms. In short there is a lot you can do to damage the brain. Use your imagination on this one

6. The skeletal structure is resilient but not as tough as one may think, ask someone who has broken an arm or leg. Targets of noteworthy mention are the clavicle (bone between shoulder and neck as seen from the front of subject), the sternum (the very center of your chest), the forearm which contain the radius and ulna and of course the leg bones. I would recommend (if at all possible during combat) targeting the lower leg region containing the fibula and tibia. This is for two main reasons, reason one being they are always closer to the surface of the leg so they are more easily broken. The second reason is they are both thinner than the femur (thigh bone) and more easily broken. The methods to damage all the above mentioned targets are numerous and varied. It should be pointed out that if you can attack a more vulnerable target such as the face/neck/spine that you do so. Attacking a part of the skeletal structure will not cause pain in a zombie nor will it cause termination. This is merely for slowing them down to make them more easily dealt with.


more to come later

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Reply with quote  #8 

That was a well thought out list olaf.

 

I would like to add the importance of the metatarsals for balance.  Again, not exactly something that would stop an LD, but it may slow them down a bit.  Not quite as much of a threat if they're falling on their faces every second or third step.


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Reply with quote  #9 

I'm so glad i found this site.

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Reply with quote  #10 
Well, some of the ideas I was going to work into a story were:

I was thinking of BMX armor. Light weight, durable.  Form fitting and covers head to toe.

As for hand weapons, while I like hand axes, I was thinking maybe ice axes would be better.   A bit better range, longer. Lightweight, made from aircraft aluminum.

And use of sign language as a means of communicating.  Relativity quiet, I'd say. 


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Reply with quote  #11 

On the form-fitting forearm and shin plates, titanium isn't necessary. If all we are trying to protect against is bites or even knife slashes, 1/16" steel would be good plenty. It would be MUCH cheaper (like, $10-$15 vs $200+) and MUCH easier to actually form fit to the arms. 1/8" Aluminum would be as far as I'd go, as it would be tougher than the 1/16" steel but still lighter, and not much more expensive. 1/8" steel will actually stop most common handgun rounds (.45, .40, 9mm, .38, most .357, .380, etc).

As far as hand weapons go, the only common metal with a melting point low enough to worry about would be lead, and it would be silly to make a weapon out of that, haha. Even aluminum melts at about 12xx degrees F, so unless you leave it in a raging fire for quite a while you won't have anything to worry about. But for simple sanitation it won't need to be nearly hot enough to worry about even effecting the metal's properties.

Just wanted to add my opinion about those two points. Pretty much everything else is very nice info!


*edit*

Oh and Armydillo, the only armor I'd bother with when facing zombies would be the forearm pads (most MX "elbow" pads extend down nearly to the hand) and shin pads, for the same reason the OP listed. Anything else and you are just weighing yourself down. Especially a helmet, as it blocks much of your sight, your sound, and makes your much more cumbersome.



*edit*


Hmm... just thought of something about the brain's oxygen requirements. Perhaps brain activity might be so low that enough oxygen can actually be absorbed into the brain through the skin? I think it's feasible for a virus that can do that to our minds to have the ability to mutate some epidermis cells to absorb oxygen directly, no? It would be more of a stretch, but then again we're already talking about zombies  .


*edit*

Or, perhaps the reason the dead zombies are so stupid is because the only way their brains can get oxygen is through absorption / osmosis through the surface and orifices of the head? Perhaps the virus could "know" that when it is time to switch to "manual power" (directly control the dead body), that almost surely the reason it died in the first place was due to damage to the circulatory or respiratory system? Thus, it would "know" that the only way it could reliably get oxygen, even a small amount, would be through direct absorption?



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Reply with quote  #12 
I actually took the recent liberty of ordering dual machetes. I have chest protectors, elbow-forearm protection, and motoX pants with protection at m disposal already. I have a 12 gauge shotgun with 360 rds sitting in my closet, but obviously that is a last resort because of the extreme noise factor. But I dont quite have facial protection squared away. I have a gas mask that I may utilize, but it hinders peripheral vision. I have a whole plan laid out, but I'm typin this from my phone and I gotta check a text message.

Oh, and if we were to experience a real kind of pandemic that involved "undead" or "infected" specimens, I suspect that they'll be people who experience symptoms similar to rabies. I would say that they would mostly resemble the sprinters (still alive) from the MSS universe.

- Hunter

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Hmm... just thought of something about the brain's oxygen requirements. Perhaps brain activity might be so low that enough oxygen can actually be absorbed into the brain through the skin? I think it's feasible for a virus that can do that to our minds to have the ability to mutate some epidermis cells to absorb oxygen directly, no? It would be more of a stretch, but then again we're already talking about zombies  .



Just a thought about the virus.  There are other organisms that produce oxygen as a by-product.  Why not the virus?  If the brain of the zombie is "slowed down" then the virus could produce enough oxygen to keep the brain functioning.  This could explain why they can stay underwater.
 
surviver5

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Reply with quote  #14 
or could it be the lymph nodes????
im not a med person or anything, but going off freshman biology the lymph system of the body is kinda like a second circulatory system. instead of blood, lymph flows and carries i believe dead cells?? dont remember, but anyway this fluid is not propelled along the body by the heart as blood does, but rather by the movement of the body- ie if the heart stops (or the body dies) the lymph could still hypothetically flow IF the body is in motion. could not the virus somehow jury-rig the lymph system to carry oxygen to and from the various muscles needed for movement? maybe this is why zombies are constantly moving?

but then again i am IN NO WAY sure of this, and i welcome anybody with an MD to give their experienced thoughts to this.
hightechredneck

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Reply with quote  #15 
on protection,,
their are several types of kevlar pants and jackets available,  saw some kevlar chap type of pants that are designed a protection when using a chainsaw. should protect you from a bite, and wont impede your movements too much,. also kevlar shooting gloves designed for police use.  for head/face protection how about a hockey helmet w/face shield, shouldnt interfere with your hearing

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Reply with quote  #16 

going to my roots on protection... fire fighter gear!  the turn-out gear would be a bit on the heavy side (and hot).  but for face protection, a simple fire helmet would be good.  flip down face shield, tough neck skirt hangs down behind, tough top incase you get hit up high.  or, for further face coverage, use a mask from the scba gear.  Scott is my favorite, but without air pack has a large hole in the face where the respirator goes.  great for breathing, not so for keeping out blood.  inter-spiro has a good set up with their patented "spiro hatch".  a small hatch on the face that opens allowing limited air in, but protects tremendously well.  clothing?  leather or denim with high-top combat boots.  as for weapons... you dont need anything too heavy as far as fire arms.  a silenced small calibre hand gun paired with a rifle of the same (if possible) means less kinds of ammo to carry.  if you find a .22 or some other very common round it will be easier to keep yourself armed.  as for melee type stuff... a good old set of irons.  about 20 pounds total, an axe and a halligan bar.  perfect for B&E or crushing heads of zeds

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Reply with quote  #17 
Really great beta and information. And yes having a gorgeous zombie babe on site is a turn on!!!!
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personal gear: I whould have  a police Riot suit with a swat or military ammo vest. I'd have a Tool type belt where i hold my 2 mashetys, Pistle and hoster, wire cuter, If posible gernades, walky talky, any thing else that could comin handy for the belt. Have some of those shot gun ammo arm bands.  Ammo would vary on what weopen i use(Probably use shot-gun, semi atomatic rifle). I whould have a pack with some spare socks, an MRE or ration of some kind, Map/GPS, small First aid kit, and some arows. Then i'd have a cross bow on my pack so if im by my self in the woods i could hunt for food with out makeing a loud noise to draw out gouls. some  thick hiking bout's so crollers don't bite my ankls.

Vhicle of choise: The one shermans got. The Armord truck. Has an expanded gas tank, off road tieres, Mashinegun turret, and gun ports. It Can carry People, Gear, Ammo Supplys and proble any thing that would fit.

My custom raiding Bus: Has a semi truck Trailer with the walls taken out. A buss cut in two Replace the Walls for each side with seats cachaned. Front of it is replaced with a dump truck's ingeen and front porshin of dump truck. If posible would have a seconde floor where ther is a storage area and a small sleeping type corders. Has an outer belcany With mounted mashine-guns. Then Maby one of those atachments for farm tracters that rip appart stuff or just a huge plow.

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Reply with quote  #19 
Helmet-wise, the kind a lot of special forces use is really nice. Hang on while I find a link/pic.



Something like this wouldn't be too bad. It'll keep your noggin' in one piece, and rises above the ears so it won't affect your hearing. There are even less bulky ballistic helmets with the above-the-ear design out there--this was just the first decent representative picture I could find.


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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GruntLord
personal gear: I whould have  a police Riot suit with a swat or military ammo vest. I'd have a Tool type belt where i hold my 2 mashetys, Pistle and hoster, wire cuter, If posible gernades, walky talky, any thing else that could comin handy for the belt. Have some of those shot gun ammo arm bands.  Ammo would vary on what weopen i use(Probably use shot-gun, semi atomatic rifle). I whould have a pack with some spare socks, an MRE or ration of some kind, Map/GPS, small First aid kit, and some arows. Then i'd have a cross bow on my pack so if im by my self in the woods i could hunt for food with out makeing a loud noise to draw out gouls. some  thick hiking bout's so crollers don't bite my ankls.


Why 2 machetes? Just curious. One would do the job just fine. And dual-wielding kills your accuracy, even with melee weapons.

Good to see you're including food, first aid, and socks (socks are very important...anyone who has ever been on a 28-mile march with 75 pounds of gear on their back can attest to the godly feeling of comfort you get when you switch out your sweaty socks for a pair of powder-dusted fresh ones.) We had a guy a while back who listed about twenty weapons he was going to bring (how I don't know, their combined weight would've been about 150 pounds), but didn't add any first aid, food, or water to his equipment list, claiming that he would just find food and water laying around waiting for him. Heh. Always glad when people don't make the same mistake.

The map is a good choice; the GPS may or may not be reliable down the line, but it certainly can't hurt in the short-term, right after a crisis hits. If possible, acquire a topographical map of your area (road maps are useless unless you're driving, and even then, a topo map can serve the same purpose) and get a good compass. Landnav is a tricky skill, but once you've learned the basics you'll be able to find your way around an entire county without ever even feeling lost.

Also, welcome to the forums!

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Reply with quote  #21 
Thank you z!!!

I agree with you since i am in scouts, shot some guns each year, hiked, and have relatives in the military.

I would have 2 mashetys since some my brake or bend or if you are in a hery and have gotten one stuck in one of your victoms and there are sill more coming at you. i wouldn't use them at the same time enless i was practising on a captured zombie.

Im not rilly athletic but if im fighting for survivle i woulden't care if i was sore or a little tired from exershin id gust keep going.

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Reply with quote  #22 
ya thats great gear in my opinion

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Reply with quote  #23 
A zombie is basically an infected host to a virus or parasite of some type. Its a scientific fact that some viruses or parasites, can change the physiology of their host.
 
So if the infected host brain no longer required oxygen, it would in theory still be able to send electrical impulses from the brain to other parts of the body. The body itself is a different story though.
 
Treating a zombie like a human is just absurd, "it" is something else. Injuries, pain, and anything not damaging the brain enough, simply doesn't work.

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by romulus8541
A zombie is basically an infected host to a virus or parasite of some type. Its a scientific fact that some viruses or parasites, can change the physiology of their host.
 
So if the infected host brain no longer required oxygen, it would in theory still be able to send electrical impulses from the brain to other parts of the body. The body itself is a different story though.
 
Treating a zombie like a human is just absurd, "it" is something else. Injuries, pain, and anything not damaging the brain enough, simply doesn't work.

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but to throw any info out  there about zombies and claim that it's "fact" is absurd as well. To pretend that we ACTUALLY know what would happen is ignorant. I don't think there is scientific evidence that proves that an infection of some kind can send messages through a deceased human brain. Like you hinted at, even if the brain could send messages down to other body parts, it is highly unlikely that the body would be able to move. Our muscles rely on bloodflow which entails and requires adequate conditions, oxygen included. 

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Reply with quote  #25 
That's why its called science FICTION. Its all in the imagination of the reader.

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