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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #1 
So for awhile I've been eye-balling a certain company's AK builds in 5.56 caliber... Arsenal, Inc.  Yes, I know I've been saying the AR is far superior and so forth blah blah blah.  I've still got love there, but I always pictured my long-time survival weapon to be something like an AR due to the magazine and ammunition popularity, but have the innards of the rugged and ultra-reliable AK (not saying an AR is unreliable, just has a LOT of moving parts and very tight tolerances).  So After a few years of watching Arsenal's line get more and more costly I finally decided to take the plunge and get a Saiga in .223.... Only problem is they disappeared when I finally shored up the cash for one.  My next idea was to get an Arsenal but yet again, the money wasn't there...

So what to do?  After some research I came across the fact that Arsenal makes their rifles off barrel-less Bulgarian AK-74 kits.  More research lead me to a place to buy AK barrels in 5.56.  After a few emails to a gunsmith or two I got the figure I wanted: $3-400 for an AK build with all the parts.  I even told him he may have to machine the barrel to get it to fit in the front trunnion and he said no problem.  Down the road I may have to get a 5.56 bolt and BCG, but I've heard of the 5.45 bolt working just fine.

Bottom line: $200 parts kit (without barrel), $110 receiver, and a $100 barrel.  Add the $400 (worst case) and I'm looking at a $800 AK that shoots a common caliber, and if I get an AR magazine adapter (~$80) I'll have a magazine commonality with most of today's military and police.  I have all the parts paid for and on order except for the adapter, which I'm going to hold off on.  I have 4 spare AR mags my ex left, along with nearly 400 rounds of 5.56/.223.

I do good?

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AvtomatJ

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Reply with quote  #2 
Sounds interesting.  You gotta show us pictures when it's done.
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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #3 
Got the parts kit in today.  Good stuff, seems like it's all here.  Looks a bit rough but I wonder how long ago it was demilled.
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AvtomatJ

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Reply with quote  #4 
A couple of things I've remembered about 5.56 AKs. 

There is no one "standard" for 5.56 magazines.  As far as I know there are two different Chinese types, a Bulgarian/Russian type, a East German/Romanian type, a Finnish type, and an Israeli type.  Even before this current panic mess they were all 2 and 3 times or more expensive than AR15 magazines.  So it's smarter to if you can get a working adapter use of AR15 ASAP.

The BCG shouldn't have to be changed out, but the bolt might.  It just depends.

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"... you may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -David "Davy" Crockett

"I wanted to see exotic Vietnam... the crown jewel of Southeast Asia. I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture... and kill them. I wanted to be the first kid on my block to get a confirmed kill!" -Pvt. Joker, Full Metal Jacket
Nyghtreaver

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Reply with quote  #5 
ok i am the first to admit i am not a "gun guy"   but my brothers AK fires 7.62  i am confuzzled
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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #6 
They make another AK-pattern rifle called the AK-74, and it generally fires the 5.45x39.5 cartridge.  What your brother has is the AK-47.

Other AKs out there (the SAR-3, WASR-3, and others) fire the NATO 5.56x45 caliber.  All I'm doing is placing the 5.56 barrel in a 5.45 AK-74 kit.  Doing this has been met with success, especially on the Bulgarian rifles--which is why I'm using a Bulgarian kit.  If you need anymore info just let me know and I'll see if I can stumble through another explanation.

On the adapter, trying to find out which works best.  And I've been told both ways on the bolt, so I just need to check it out myself--there seems to be a .001 dfference in the casing sizes between 5.45 and 5.56...

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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #7 
Got my barrel in on Thursday, and they just took the $76 bucks out of my account for the receiver to be shipped on Monday.  NoDak was backed up too far so I went with a Ohio Ordnance Works receiver for nearly half-price, before shipping (It's the bottom one in this link: http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/Firearms/Rifles_Pistols/Receivers.cat )

Spoke with my builder and he's ready to receive, I just need to work out particulars like shipping, when he needs payment, etc.

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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #8 
Hiccup'd on 922r compliance.  Waiting for a Tapco G2 Trigger group and an AR magazine adapter to come in before I send it all off.  I hope this is worth it.
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drsack

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Reply with quote  #9 
First it sound like a neat project and I think it should work well for you. I hope the barrel is a true 5.56 Nato the reason is noted below. Many AR15 are made for both rounds and are marked .223 anyway. The older Colts are like this.

Here's a link with images of the different cartidges in most use today.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/images/Cartridges.jpg 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3217/3156094987_2010caaa68_o.jpg 

http://bcraig.net/hosting/rifle/bullets/9mm%20ammo.jpg 

http://users.nikealaska.org/~sustinemus/cartridges.jpg 

Something to keep in mind is there are differences between the .223 Rem. and the 5.56x45 Nato rounds. Most of the cases are the same on the out side but, they are different on the inside. Many of the 5.56 rounds have a higher pressure than the .223 round. The military case use a thicker base  and walls and many Nato rifles have longer headspace in the rifle. The thicker walls and base let the case stretch under the higher pressure.

There is also a difference for the 7.62x51 Nato round and the .308 Win. round. The case sizes are almost the the same on the outside. However, the most notable point is the pressures in many .308's on the market today are to high for many Nato rifles. Due to the thinner case base and walls of the civilian .308 and the longer headspacing in the military rifles the .308 case can stretch and rupture.

For more info on these google the .308 Win. Vs. 7.62 Nato and the .223 Rem vs. 5.56 Nato.

There are also some differences with the military .30 cal (7.62x63) and the civilian 30-06 when used in semi auto's and full autos like Garands and BAR's. The military rounds use a slower burning powder. The civilian rounds use a faster burning powder were often the pressure is too high at the begining of the discharge. With the faster burning powder there is often not enough pressure left by the time the projectile passes the vent hole to force the bolt back far enough to function a full cycle or at all.

Many people do not know about these differences and have been using these for a long time with no issues. However, in time they could have a real damaged rifle and maybe be injured.



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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #10 
Thanks for the heads up but I learned all about this when I built my first AR.  It is something that should be said, just in case someone stumbles upon this thread from elsewhere.

It is a 5.56 K-Var barrel.

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drsack

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Reply with quote  #11 
RCS, I'm glad you knew this stuff already, smart man. The more I go over this idea of yours the more I think it's a cool one. I can't wait to hear the end report on this project.

I've been out and about looking over the ammo stocks and even one of our biggest dealers are down to about 25% of their stock. One of our best gun stores still has some 7.62x39 but, down to maybe 10% of what they did carry, completely out of most of the more common stuff. I've not seen any jumps in prices when restocked so far but, there are linits of 2 or 3 boxs a day. I haven't seen any .223/5.56, 9mm, 380 and 7.62x54r at all.

Being new to this forum what are your thoughts on starting a thread on ammo and or reloading or is there one already?


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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #12 
Thanks very much.  I've been reading up on this for a few months now.  Appreciated.

My local stores are pretty low nowadays but I did see about 20 boxes of American Eagle .223 for $12 per 20 rds.  Those were snatched up within a day.  Another store had 50 of the same brand for $25 per 20rds.  That's gouging bullshit, at it's finest.

And go ahead.  I don't believe there's a thread like that.  Be my guest.

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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #13 
My Tapco G2 trigger shipped today and I picked up three 100-round bulk packs of Federal .223 at Wal Mart today.  Too good.

The AR magazine adapter is the last thing I need before shipping this thing off to the builder.  He's fitting it for the rifle and everything.

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AvtomatJ

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Reply with quote  #14 
Which magazine adapter are you getting? 

After watching this video:



Definitive Arms looks like they really got their shit together.

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"I wanted to see exotic Vietnam... the crown jewel of Southeast Asia. I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture... and kill them. I wanted to be the first kid on my block to get a confirmed kill!" -Pvt. Joker, Full Metal Jacket
Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #15 
I'm on their looooooooooonnnnnnnnnggggggg waiting list to have their adapter installed on my rifle.  The reason I'm buying the Renegadebuck adapter is because I contacted Chase (the guy in charge at DA) and he said they were only working on the flurry of orders they got for Saiga-223 rifles, and would eventually branch out to other 5.56/.223 AK-pattern rifles.  Since mine is a Bulgarian I expect to wait awhile.  Not that it won't be worth it.

But yeah, I've been following DA for quite some time now.  I just don't have the $1,200+ they're asking for a full converted rifle.

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Nyghtreaver

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Reply with quote  #16 
one of the managers at work is workling on an ar-15, he has everything except some part i cant recall name of, i want to say FFa but not sure why.  somethiung about registratered part or some crap.  think hec said he was lookin at 600 bucks.  you guys have a clue what i'm talkin about and if so any ideas where to get cheaper.  he might be willing to trade some m-16 mags. dont know this for sure but i know he has  some extra.
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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #17 
The only part on an AR that's going to be close to that much is an entire upper.

I'd like to know what this part is if you wouldn't mind asking him again.

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AvtomatJ

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtreaver
one of the managers at work is workling on an ar-15, he has everything except some part i cant recall name of, i want to say FFa but not sure why.  somethiung about registratered part or some crap.  think hec said he was lookin at 600 bucks.  you guys have a clue what i'm talkin about and if so any ideas where to get cheaper.  he might be willing to trade some m-16 mags. dont know this for sure but i know he has  some extra.


Sounds like he is talking about a lower receiver that is the serial numbered part that has to be transfered through a FFL'd (Federal Firearms License) dealer.  Just a few months ago they were going for $80 to $150 for a standard type, but since the panic they are very had to find at any price.  Some of them are being sold through Gunbroker.com for an excess of $500. 

Really, your friend's only options are, wait and see if the price comes down on them (and it will once the panic buying stops, in about 6 months to 1.5 years), or pay the inflated panic price to get one now.

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"... you may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -David "Davy" Crockett

"I wanted to see exotic Vietnam... the crown jewel of Southeast Asia. I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture... and kill them. I wanted to be the first kid on my block to get a confirmed kill!" -Pvt. Joker, Full Metal Jacket
Nyghtreaver

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Reply with quote  #19 
yes i beleive thats it, he did say something about liscensed and federal.  i'll pass alonng the advice about wait out the panic, or pony up the cash. he's pretty savy though so i am sure he already knows this

thanks for the feedback.  i have another question but i saw a thread about ammo so i'll go there lol

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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #20 
What the crap happened to your avatar?

Sad day, my good man.

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drsack

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Reply with quote  #21 
Hey RCS, any word on your project yet?

 

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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #22 
No word as of yet. The last I heard he got my package and that was all. I guess one of the drawbacks of using one of the best AK builders in the country is the insanely long wait time. Should be worth it, though, since this guy has been in business for some time and has had so few complaints it borders on psychotic (man takes pride in his work, and we appreciate it).

Although one thing did change is I'm buying AK magazines and selling my Renegadebuck adapter ASAP because I like stuff done right the first time (like waiting on the Definitive Arms conversion, which seems to be, in my opinion, the greatest thing one can do to their 5.56 AK/Saiga--most may disagree)

I think I'll shoot Troy an email and see how it's all going now. Thanks for the support!

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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #23 
It appears I'm "still a bit away."
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drsack

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Reply with quote  #24 
Well, at least you've got all your stuff together. Sounds like it'll be sweet once you get it.


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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #25 
I agree. My family and I are literally over the wait

I want to go to work on some paper! (And Zeds, if the need arises)

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