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Raccoon_City_Survivor

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Reply with quote  #26 
I'll find out when I shoot one--let you all know.

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nierahzee

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Reply with quote  #27 
I was gonna say mass was the key issue here, but Doc T beat me to it.
I'd love to see a study on people slumping forward when shot in the stomach.

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ZombieHobbit

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Reply with quote  #28 

In the end, all it really comes down to one basic fact:  I hope I never get shot. 

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Armydillo978

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake1100
unholy, you are officially the coolest girl...ever.


Unholy is a girl? I thought she was a werewolf who has been in love with Z since he was a baby?

Years ago, when a fellow mate and I were moving from one position to the other we took fire from our flank. He was shot in the neck, I was shot in the shoulder. Neither one of us noticed until I said, "Insert name, what's the shit on your neck?" Turns out it was blood. Now, I did feel a slight sensation like a tap when the round hit me, but nothing like ya see in the movies of yore.

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'Dillo
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"Sometimes when you roll the dice, you come up with craps, and I rolled craps."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday
If the zeds come, and if you've survived, and if you manage to find a comfortable situation, please don't underestimate slippery ninja-ness of the undead.

nierahzee

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Reply with quote  #30 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armydillo978
Years ago, when a fellow mate and I were moving from one position to the other

I must be having a really juvenile day, because I got that far in your post and started cracking up.

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Armydillo978

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nierahzee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armydillo978
Years ago, when a fellow mate and I were moving from one position to the other

I must be having a really juvenile day, because I got that far in your post and started cracking up.


Holy shit, that IS funny as shit. I should edit that sentence, but it's to funny.

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'Dillo
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"Sometimes when you roll the dice, you come up with craps, and I rolled craps."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday
If the zeds come, and if you've survived, and if you manage to find a comfortable situation, please don't underestimate slippery ninja-ness of the undead.

DocT

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake1100
yes explode, but the actual bb size object wont send it flying. And nyghtreaver, we're talking about living people, Not zombies.


When one defines the term "explode", it leads me at least to visualize a body disintegrating into many parts, which then fly apart.  There is NO relatively complete body, which could be pushed back, but a system of distinct parts of different mass.  So some of the body "parts" will go flying!!

IMHO, the nature of the tissue matter, whether dead or alive, does not drastically affect the Physics. However, dead or alive will cause the tissue to react differently to the penetrating trauma of the round...



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DocT

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armydillo978
Quote:
Originally Posted by nierahzee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armydillo978
Years ago, when a fellow mate and I were moving from one position to the other

I must be having a really juvenile day, because I got that far in your post and started cracking up.


Holy shit, that IS funny as shit. I should edit that sentence, but it's to funny.


Lol...It must be my age, but now I get it!! 

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nierahzee

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Reply with quote  #34 

I need to get a dvd copy of all the Mythbusters gun experiments, that and the two episodes where they tried to pancake a car between two speeding semi-trucks.


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John_Brian_K

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nierahzee

I need to get a dvd copy of all the Mythbusters gun experiments, that and the two episodes where they tried to pancake a car between two speeding semi-trucks.

Epic episode.

I LOVE that show.

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JBK
Dec 09, 2009 at 10:18 AM
========================
"Something my granddad used to tell us. You know Macumba? Voodoo. My granddad was a priest in Trinidad. He used to tell us, "When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth."
nierahzee

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Reply with quote  #36 
I was always shocked at how the ballistics dummies barely moved when shot.

It's amazing just how many misconceptions you can rack up about a subject like gunfire vs. various materials just by watching tv.

Here's a doozy for you... The scene in Underworld, when Selene (Kate Beckinsale) spins in a circle and shoots repeatedly so that the floor falls out beneath her and she basically rides it down to the first floor...  That can't be even slightly realistic, can it?  At the very least, you're talking highly wasteful.

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jake1100

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Reply with quote  #37 

Doc, i know the physics are the same, but he was saying it would knock it down because of balance.


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Armydillo978

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nierahzee
I was always shocked at how the ballistics dummies barely moved when shot. It's amazing just how many misconceptions you can rack up about a subject like gunfire vs. various materials just by watching tv. Here's a doozy for you... The scene in Underworld, when Selene (Kate Beckinsale) spins in a circle and shoots repeatedly so that the floor falls out beneath her and she basically rides it down to the first floor...  That can't be even slightly realistic, can it?  At the very least, you're talking highly wasteful.


Actually, tipping the hat again to Mythbusters, they tried that with a plywood floor. Using various weapons from pistol to MP5 and it was busted.

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'Dillo
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"Sometimes when you roll the dice, you come up with craps, and I rolled craps."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday
If the zeds come, and if you've survived, and if you manage to find a comfortable situation, please don't underestimate slippery ninja-ness of the undead.

DocT

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake1100

Doc, i know the physics are the same, but he was saying it would knock it down because of balance.



Loss of balance due to a body shot is a very difficult question to answer.  It depends on many variables.

Let's say a person is standing overlooking a wall in such a manner that the placement of his center of gravity would cause him to fall, if he allowed his leg muscles to relax. While the shot will not transfer enough momentum to cause him to fall, the trauma could cause his leg muscles to spasm, thereby having him fall quickly.

The outside observer sees him get hit, then fall. He decides the shot made him fall, but that's not really the cause, but an contributing event. This is why some events are wrongly analyzed by the lay person.



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John_Brian_K

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Reply with quote  #40 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armydillo978
Quote:
Originally Posted by nierahzee
I was always shocked at how the ballistics dummies barely moved when shot. It's amazing just how many misconceptions you can rack up about a subject like gunfire vs. various materials just by watching tv. Here's a doozy for you... The scene in Underworld, when Selene (Kate Beckinsale) spins in a circle and shoots repeatedly so that the floor falls out beneath her and she basically rides it down to the first floor...  That can't be even slightly realistic, can it?  At the very least, you're talking highly wasteful.


Actually, tipping the hat again to Mythbusters, they tried that with a plywood floor. Using various weapons from pistol to MP5 and it was busted.

I remember seeing that one I think.  I am surprised it didnt work though.  If you are standing between truss' with just plywood under you and you empty a couple mags into the floor I would have thought the damage combined with the weight of the person would be enough to 'push' you through.

it almost seems likely.

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JBK
Dec 09, 2009 at 10:18 AM
========================
"Something my granddad used to tell us. You know Macumba? Voodoo. My granddad was a priest in Trinidad. He used to tell us, "When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth."
nierahzee

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocT
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake1100

Doc, i know the physics are the same, but he was saying it would knock it down because of balance.



Loss of balance due to a body shot is a very difficult question to answer.  It depends on many variables.

Let's say a person is standing overlooking a wall in such a manner that the placement of his center of gravity would cause him to fall, if he allowed his leg muscles to relax. While the shot will not transfer enough momentum to cause him to fall, the trauma could cause his leg muscles to spasm, thereby having him fall quickly.

The outside observer sees him get hit, then fall. He decides the shot made him fall, but that's not really the cause, but an contributing event. This is why some events are wrongly analyzed by the lay person.


This seems to be one of those questions where we need wire-frame representations of the body in question to see just what is happening as the shot hits.


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Nurgle

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Reply with quote  #42 

Cue the uppy csi music with DocT and nierahzee throwing dummies of a building lol.


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nierahzee

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurgle

Cue the uppy csi music with DocT and nierahzee throwing dummies of a building lol.

Bwahaha!  If only I could get that job!

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Nyghtreaver

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Reply with quote  #44 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jake1100
yes explode, but the actual bb size object wont send it flying. And nyghtreaver, we're talking about living people, Not zombies.


aww so no one is gonna satnd on stilts and get tennis balls shot at em? that makes me  a sad panda.

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JMcDonald

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Reply with quote  #45 
Doc pretty much said it already, but I will add the force the firearm applies to the shooter's shoulders / wrists is the exact same amount of force applied to the target, sans the few pounds of the firearm itself (which is insignificant compared to the weight of the shooter).

Conservation of Momentum is the prime principle with which we are dealing. Kinetic energy is obviously a factor, but as far as the gross effects of shooting / getting shot (how the mass of the body reacts, not the wounding potential of the bullet), conservation of momentum will just about cover it and is far simpler to grasp.

While the numbers might not be applicable to common formulas, a simple comparison of momentum can be done by simply multiplying the weight of any object times its velocity.

So, lets say take a standard .45acp round of 230gr or .525oz. At 850fps it has a "momentum value" of 446.25. A standard baseball of about 5.25oz would thus only have to be going 85mph to achieve the same momentum. A fastball would surely hurt, but most of us have seen batters get hit and we know the ball just bounces off them without them moving backward any significant amount.

Perhaps an even better example would be of a 175lb person--2800oz. Being hit by said .45acp bullet or said baseball would accelerate them to roughly .17MPH. It would also be roughly equivalent of getting shoulder-hit by a 175lb person moving at .17MPH. The distance the impactee would move backwards is proportional to how quickly he or she could decelerate from .17mph to 0mph. And, as you'd imagine, that's not that difficult, heh.


No projectile fired from a hand-held weapon is going to knock a target off his or her feet. It might knock him or her off balance, the same way a very powerful rifle might knock a shooter off balance (as we've seen on youtube), but that's it. It could conceivably rotate a body to some degree, but that would still require the target to be off balance. If the target stood ready for the shot, even a hit to the shoulder would only move it back a few inches--again the same distance the shooter's shoulder moved.
alex51

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Reply with quote  #46 
You mean to tell me the movies lied .....nooooooooooooooooooo !!!

Next you'll tell me that everything on the internet isn't true.


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DocT

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcDonald


While the numbers might not be applicable to common formulas, a simple comparison of momentum can be done by simply multiplying the weight of any object times its velocity.

So, lets say take a standard .45acp round of 230gr or .525oz. At 850fps it has a "momentum value" of 446.25. A standard baseball of about 5.25oz would thus only have to be going 85mph to achieve the same momentum. A fastball would surely hurt, but most of us have seen batters get hit and we know the ball just bounces off them without them moving backward any significant amount.




Not to be too picky, JM, but momentum is "mass" times velocity, not "weight". However, while I know you know that particular point, my concern is that you or others here are "possibly" mixing units of measure in their calculations. Just to confirm for all the readers:

Mass is in either kilograms or grams or slugs (about 14.6 kg conversion).
Velocity is thus in m/sec or cm/sec or ft/sec. respectively.

The unit of ounce is one of those special words that has many "definitions" and conversion values. In addition it has been used interchangeably as a unit of mass, volume and weight depending at the point of time of discussion. See Wikipedia definitions for more ounce and slug info.

Thus work within the principal measurement systems: MKS, CGS or English (Imperial) systems for careful calculations.

Lecture hat off!

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JMcDonald

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Reply with quote  #48 

In most cases I would say you are being too picky , but I do see exactly your point of avoiding confusing others. I apologize!

bigvYNWA

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Reply with quote  #49 
Good discussions these, and i must say i learnt a few little things here and there i didn't know. My experience with shooting leads me to believe that although the force of the bullet will force you to maybe fall in the direction the bullet was travelling depending on caliber, that is it. I have shot rabbits with a .223, quite a powerful rifle and the rabbit just slumped, rather than flying backwards or anything. It turned a couple over, but that was it. Same with a fox i shot one night with a shotgun. Even with the force of a boxers punch, the fox still just dropped. Nice big whole in the head, but still just dropped. Leads me to believe that although there may be a jolt as the bullet hits, and a fall in the direction of the travelling bullet, but that would be it. 

Although as someone said, a stomach shot may result in somcone doubling over forward. All depends on power of the shot, and where it hits. But i doubt it would ever result in more than just falling over some way, not being forced back by a couple of meters or anything.

Unless its one of those cannons from Rambo
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